A couple of days ago, I received an e-mail from someone wondering what I knew about the Fernley Flood a while back and whether I knew who the builders out there were. Unfortunately, I didn’t have much knowledge; I personally knew one of the attorneys that was doing a little work in the ensuing civil disputes so I sent the person their phone number, but that was about it. In the process of the conversation, though, we began to discuss politics. They identified as a “progressive liberal”. I was intrigued - I hadn’t had an intelligent conversation with one before. I think I can safely say I still haven’t.
NOTE: This goes on for a while. In fact, it goes on for a long while. You’ve been warned.
Italics is my new “progressive liberal” friend.
Bold is your host.
Names have been omitted to protect the innocent. We’re going to jump in right after I let the person know that I really didn’t know much about the Fernley Flood situation… which, well, I don’t. Sorry.
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Thanks, David. My heart hurts for all those people who lost all the
owned. Selling people property in a place they knew wasn’t safe to
build in.
Your political affiliation is? Myself, I’m a Progressive (Liberal).
What do you think of Assembly Speaker Barbara Buckley’s play for the
governorship in 2010? The mining and casino industries own her like a
pair of shoes. The three biggest TelCom’s have a piece of her as well.
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Thus it begins…
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I lean libertarian, myself. I’ll have to admit, building homes next to a 100 year old dirt irrigation ditch was probably not the smartest idea in the free world. Then again, neither was neglecting to purchase flood insurance when you’re living next to a 100 year old dirt irrigation ditch. I suspect there was a lot of blame to go around, between whoever was responsible for maintaining the ditch, the people that approved the building of the homes by the ditch, those that built the homes, and those that bought homes next to an active, ancient irrigation ditch and didn’t think that might be worth insuring against. I’d call it “systemic failure”, myself.
Ah, Barbara Buckley… it’ll be interesting to see how the next gubernatorial election shapes up. I’ll have to admit, Gibbons has done a wonderful job of ruining the Republican brand as far as Nevada’s concerned. Consequently, I’m not surprised that the two industries this state has (mining & casinos, of course) are doing what they can to curry favor with the “leading” Democratic candidate in the state. That said, given a choice between her and Titus… oy. I’ll have to admit, I’m not a big fan of Titus - I do live in Reno, after all, and she knows full well that we’ve done her no favors. I suppose that, if I had to vote Democrat, I could probably vote for Derby without too many problems, but she seems rather fixated on Congress at the moment. Can’t say I blame her.
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I was curious to see how well this person would react to that e-mail. I touched on the concept of personal responsibility and seemed lukewarm on Democratic gubernatorial candidates. The “progressive liberal” actually handled it reasonably well… at first.
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12 years of Repug failures (Guinn being a bigger failure than Gibbons)
should make voting Dem your only logical choice. Looks like you’re have
an open field in 2016. Obama’s natural choice for VP (Sebelius) will be
too old.
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Some interesting notes right about here:
- Interesting that this person assumes that 2012 will default towards Obama & The Democrats. It’s good to have faith in your candidate, but still, there’s a lot that can happen in four years. Just ask our current President.
- Also interesting that Kathleen Sebelius is considered the natural choice for Obama’s VP. Not that I disagree, mind you - just interesting.
So, I replied:
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It should, but the Dems haven’t exactly been impressing me, either. Reid and Pelosi have done disturbingly little to clean up the wonderful wave of corruption the Republicans put into place, and the Democrats have been just as bad with ethanol subsidies and corporate corruption as their Republican counterparts as of late (Countrywide?). Very disappointing. As for the state, well, yeah, Guinn and Gibbons have been pretty bad. Then again, what are they going to be replaced with? Titus? Her idea of “let’s balance the budget” was to try and throw the gas holiday measure in with the casino tax bill. I don’t know if it was Truman or Eisenhower who said this, but one of them said something to the effect that if Democrats try to out-Republican Republicans, people are just going to vote for Republicans. The inverse, of course, is also true.
I wouldn’t be so sure about Obama making it through two terms. Heck, McCain is a lot closer in the polls than he really has any right to be right now, which means that Obama may be getting elected not on the strength of his positions or his platform but simply because he’s not a Republican. Ask Carter what kind of a domestic mandate that gives you. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t see any Reagans hiding in the shadows, but if Obama overplays his hand, the Republicans might not need one. I don’t think I’ve been so underwhelmed during a presidential election before, and that includes Bush-Kerry. That’s saying something right there.
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Now, when I mentioned “no more Reagans”, I meant that there weren’t any obviously charismatic Republicans waiting in the wings to become President that people would actually get excited about. Simply put, there aren’t any interesting Republicans in the pipes at the moment, which is why I’m one of those that would rather vote for McCain and have a nominally fiscally conservative President than vote for Obama with the idea that it’ll teach anyone anything. The Republican Party got lucky - they had a candidate in 1980 that was charismatic and had a wildly different platform than the Rockefeller Republicans that preceded him, which was more than enough to wipe the taint of Nixon and Ford out of everyone’s mouths. Throw in an absolutely incompetent Carter administration and you had the perfect storm. The Republicans aren’t going to have that in 2012, and people need to wake up and realize that.
The “progressive liberal”, meanwhile, responded.
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What this state needs is a GRT/B&OT — or whatever name you stick to it
but mining and casino’s need to be taxed accordingly. That free ride
going on since forever would end with a governor doing their j-o-b.
Guinn moved Hell and high water to prevent that from happening. Between
those two entities alone we could see our way out of this [fiscal]
darkness in short order.
Obama couldn’t loss this if Larry Sinclair had video of his allegations.
His election is a forgone conclusion and the repubs know it. Unless of
course the Bradley affect takes hold ‘bigtime.’
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Now, I’m not entirely up on tax & spend code, but I’m suspecting that GRT means “Gross Revenue Tax”. I’m lost on B&OT, though. Either way, this person’s solution towards Nevada’s fiscal ills is to increase taxes across the board, which is definitely a curious direction in the middle of an inflationary recession. Nothing says, “Re-elect me!” like voting for something that increases further the price of goods and services, hinders job growth, and shows that the government isn’t exercising the same kind of fiscal restraint that its citizens are obliged to.
Larry Sinclair, meanwhile, has been the center of a story interesting enough to grant a Doonesbury cartoon. Whether any of it is true or not, I don’t know. I also don’t particularly care - if Obama’s on drugs or engaging in homosexual activities, it’s not a big deal in my book. Besides, as the “progressive liberal” pointed out, proof is in the pudding, and, so far, no “pudding” on this “scandal” has been found. I have bigger issues with his policies and his absolutely bizarre followers. Of course, the idea that someone would fail to vote for Obama because they don’t agree with him is probably a foreign concept to some people, but whatever.
It’s my turn to respond:
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Perhaps - then again, if we set up a tax system dependent on our two biggest industries, it would only be a matter of time before one of them experienced some economic hardship and we’d be right back to where we are right now. Besides, Nevada’s two primary methods of taxation are property taxes, which casinos and mines pay (except in downtown Reno, for various political reasons), and sales taxes, which gives us money from the tourists that visit the casinos. All increasing taxes on casinos would do is cause them to tighten their odds, which would reduce the amount of spending money that tourists have, which, in turn, would just cause our sales taxes to drop. That’s the problem with taxing businesses - they just pass the tax on to their customers and keep the same net profit margins.
I think you’re right - it’s definitely Obama’s race to lose. People are nervous about the economy, the Republicans are completely confused, and Obama is extremely charismatic. Obama would have to make a lot of very serious mistakes to lose this one. That said, his numbers aren’t as strong as they should be at this point. They might improve after the nomination and after the aftereffects of Hillary wear off, but we’ll see.
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Now, I’ll point out that, at this point, I’m being very civil. At least, I think I am. I’m trying to see this person’s side of the argument. I’m even conceding bits and pieces of it. Apparently, though, I hit a nerve, which is good because, otherwise, I would have had absolutely nothing to write about today.
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Ah, they say under ever Libertarian is a fiscal conservative. Nice try,
but no cigar. Surly you didn’t think you could sneak that ‘Norquistian
nonsense’ pass a tax and spend Liberal like myself. Not a snowballs
chance in the VIP section of Hell you peddling that shit as truth here,
slick. And next you’ll tell me pancakes grow on trees.
Neither pays their way, you know, and I know it. A GRT is ‘long
overdue’ for both players. When you partly blamed the homeowners for
buying there [Fernley] it gave away your mentality of indifference. And
the ‘there’s no reagan” schtick. May his worthless soul burn for all
eternity in that VIP section. What was that ’stupidity’ you babbled
about the porr casino’s — talk about inventive silliness? They’ll
just tighten the odds and pass it on?
Ok, I would say this has been informative but I’d be lying. Your ilk of
politicos is why our republic is going to Hell in a hand basket.
Milton, why post a website about Fernley in the first place and you know
‘nothing’ outside of what’s in the public domain.
Idiot grow up, you’d probably make a fine adult if you thought further
out than your own [fiscal] bottom line. You plan to run for President
– of what?
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I’ll just let my response speak for itself.
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Some fairly quick thoughts:
- My web site is not about Fernley. I posted a couple of blog postings on it over six months ago because I have some friends that live out there. I post about all kinds of things, of which the Fernley Flood was one of them.
- The whole “running for President” gag is a gag. I was originally making fun of the rather lengthy primary process and it’s “declare for the Presidency a full two years in advance” routine by getting a jump on the process in a very tongue-in-cheek sort of way. Whether you caught that or not, I’ll never know.
- Seeing as one of the biggest precepts of Libertarianism is, in fact, fiscal conservatism, it should not be surprising that I am, in fact, fiscally conservative. It’s kind of hard to call yourself a Libertarian when you advocate taxing everyone and spending their money for them. In fact, that would be the antithesis of Libertarianism.
- Nevada can pay its way one of two ways: Raises taxes or buy less. I’d prefer for Nevada’s legislature to make fewer spending promises. You prefer that Nevada raises taxes. Both approaches hurt, but in wildly different ways. Considering how a lot of new industries are moving into Nevada precisely because of our tax-friendly environment, and considering how I’d actually like Nevada to have more than two industries to draw revenue from, I’d prefer to keep our tax-friendly environment in place. Perhaps you feel we’re farther along in our economic diversification efforts.
- Yep, I’m generally indifferent of people that don’t bother to take steps to protect themselves against problems that they can’t afford out-of-pocket. That’s the point of insurance, and it’s because too many people think short-term that it’s now legally mandatory that I and every other driver in every state other than Iowa has to have car insurance. I’m not saying it’s the homeowner’s fault for buying in a flood plain, but it is their fault for not insuring themselves against the possibility that the flood plain might actually, y’know, flood. Flood plains are funny like that. Besides, when you buy a house next to something that carries substantial amounts of water, wouldn’t you kind of have to assume that, at some point, that something might find itself carrying more water than it was originally designed to carry? Besides, we get floods of some sort in this area about once every three or four years, so it’s not like flooding is unprecedented.
- Pancakes do not, in fact, grow on trees. The delicious syrup that I eat with them, however, does.
- It’s good to see that, under every “progressive liberal” is a condescending, arrogant ass (donkey?) who immediately goes towards personal insults and ad hominem attacks when pushed. Comforting.
At this point, I suspect we can mutually agree that this conversation isn’t going anywhere - it seems neither of us is particularly convincing. Consequently, I won’t be particularly responsive from here on out.
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I know I was probably a bit more of an ass towards the Fernley homeowners than I should have been, though I do really, truly think that flood insurance is a really, really good idea, even in a desert. Too many people seem to think that, because we live in a desert, it never floods. Quite the opposite is true - because it rarely rains, it doesn’t take anywhere near as much for the ground to get saturated and turn a cute little storm into a house eater. I also hold true to my pro-maple syrup stance because it’s incredibly delicious and tasty.
So, there you go - I have conversed with the other side and now we are all richer for the experience.
Oh, and because it’s obligatory:

What, you thought I was going to post this?